Thursday, August 03, 2006

Open Thread

A place to post rants, gossip, and other junk.

94 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The following APSA qualitative 'panel', Session 46-9 The Methods Cafe (a.k.a. Consult a 'Specialist': Methodological Brainstorming), sounds little crazy in terms of content (by which I mean that I personally don't want to talk about any of the methods on offer) but the format sounds... kind of interesting, actually. I'd like to see something like that with quantitative methods - it might be really useful.

12:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I prefer watching Guy get kicked out of a methods pub.

1:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is Latex worth it? Advocates seem to suggest that it lets you focus on the content, not the style of a paper but people seem to spend a lot of time learning it. Starts to sound like spending time focusing on style? Other advocates argue that Latex style signals a paper with "correct methods." That argument seems to be made on style grounds. Is its appeal then actually about style over function? If not, what are its functional benefits over other word processors?

1:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you want to get very fine details of formatting just right, have repeated instances of the same format in a single paper look exactly the same, and typeset math easily, LaTeX is great. I think most of us who use LaTeX have also used conventional word processors first and find it very hard to go back, especially for technical typesetting.

2:04 PM  
Blogger Attic said...

These are important points about LaTeX vs. WYSIWYG software, but I think they miss the big point. The output from a TeX file, whether it has lots of math or not, is vastly better than any "publishing" that a word processor is capable of. In fact, many math and stat presses take camera ready LaTeX output from authors right to production. Clearly we all want to put our best foot forward with reviewers/editors/colleagues/etc. It doesn't replace good content, but it certainly helps show it.

3:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Attic said...
These are important points about LaTeX vs. WYSIWYG software, but I think they miss the big point. The output from a TeX file, whether it has lots of math or not, is vastly better than any "publishing" that a word processor is capable of. In fact, many math and stat presses take camera ready LaTeX output from authors right to production. Clearly we all want to put our best foot forward with reviewers/editors/colleagues/etc. It doesn't replace good content, but it certainly helps show it.

3:54 PM


**********************

I guess I don't really understand that. What is it about the output that's vastly better? I kind of like the way it looks -- it's quite pretty! -- but I always assumed that you could reproduce that format, font, etc. with your standard word processor.

4:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

oh - so glad we're talking about this. I'm a relative luddite who uses MathType (the proprietary version of Equation Editor) with Microsoft Word. It is sometimes frustrating to use, but it is quite intuitive, and generally produces beautiful output that can be pdf'ed just as well as any Latex document. But I feel... guilty and unsophisticated I guess. Are others in the same boat? To what extent am I just dragging my heels?

The main problem I have with my current approach is that I'm constantly moving between Mathematica and Word, and having to retype extensive Mathematica formulae in Word. This feels pretty inefficient.

On a related topic, I've come to discover that some political scientists use Scientific Workplace or other WYSIWYG-ish front-end software to create Latex documents. How commonplace is this practice?

5:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Scientific Workplace is far from wysiwyg. I don't use it but I gather it has come along in recent years.

I have, one time, seen a true MS Word virtuoso create a document that had as clean a feel as a LaTeX document in the article class (but a different font than the LaTeX default). Otherwise people don't seem to have the time or inclination to do what's necessary in Word. LaTeX users don't either, which is why they use it.

5:14 PM  
Anonymous Stephen Haptonstahl said...

Non-differences between Word and LaTeX:
- Formatting: If you can do it in one environment, you can do it in the other. LaTeX makes it easy to make a change in one place that affects a whole document, while Word makes it easy to figure out exactly how to make a particular change (point and click.)
- Fonts and "prettiness": LaTeX is not trying to update your screen in real time, so it uses better kerning algorithms which make the output prettier, but "pretty" is not a substantive interest.

Real differences:
- Structured documents: During my recent comprehensive exam, I did not want to spend time mucking around with formatting, so I used LaTeX. By using the simple, default structure commands like \section, \subsection, etc., I produced an organized, easy-to-read document while spending my time thinking about the content.
- Stable data format: I've been computing 25 years, but I can't open any of the files I created back then. I am sure that I will be able to read/compile my LaTeX documents in 25 years. I am not at all sure about any Word files I have.

If you spend a lot of time to get LaTeX to format many different documents in many different ways, then you might do better using a WYSIWYG program like Word. Even though I occasionally teach minicourses on LaTeX, I recommend MS products for some purposes. However, if you write a lot of papers that don't need to be formatted differently and you get tired of fighting to get formatting consistent across a whole document (or more than one document) then it's worth spending a little time to learn the basics of LaTeX.

Incidentally, if you find you are spending a lot of time learning LaTeX basics, find some local expertise. Most LaTeX documentation is cryptic, so having an expert available can really save a lot of time.

6:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For the grad students out there - if you prepare your dissertation in LaTeX, you don't need to fuss with any of the formatting problems that I've seen Word users develop headaches over; you use the existing template for a PhD thesis and everything gets done automatically. (Except the actual content, of course.)

6:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, great discussion. I second the Luddite sentiment expressed earlier! But Stephen's differences don't strike me as enormous. E.g.,

(1) How are the default structure commands in Latex any different/better than the defined styles in MS Word?

(2) I too have been computing for 25 years and would be lucky to find my files (produced in Wordstar!) from back then. However, I can't imagine documents produced in MS Word today will be lost to the ages (at least during our lifetime).

6:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Any tips about how to create a clean LaTeX feel in MS Word (besides turning kerning on)?

7:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You have to learn Latex to know the advantage. The chance is that you will like it and never want to go back. If there is someone around you who uses it, ask for a template and you can start writing immediately. It will be a lot harder to do it all by yourself.

8:16 PM  
Anonymous Becky Morton said...

I use both word & scientific workplace for latex & sometimes word perfect depending on the coauthor. I have several coauthors who strongly prefer word perfect over word because of capabilities of seeing hidden commands similar to the advantage of latex I imagine.

I never have bothered to learn how to do tex outside of scientific workplace and there are actually a large number of people who use tex through scientific workplace like myself. One advantage is that a version of maple is imbedded in scientific workplace and you can take advantage of that for some of the calculations in your work.

Another big advantage of scientific workplace is if you are writing something long like a book with lots of equations. I've found that word is very difficult to use for big book manuscripts with a lot of equations & pictures. Word creates a lot of picture files for the equations and with the backups you end up with the computer RAM quickly being exhausted. I end up having to break the book up into chapter files or taking all pictures out or other awkward things and having to repeatedly shut things down and restart the computer. In latex through scientific workplace I never have that problem even with quite long books with equations. So when writing a book with equations I think there are definite advantages to use latex over word.

9:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One worry about switching to Tex. Word has some nice tools and macros that most people don't use, but are quite nice. E.g., cross-referencing for tables and figures, track changes for co-authoring, add-on software like Endnote, etc...

For those of us who care about some of the bells and whistles, won't Tex leave you with just a tablet (although a pretty one, apparently)?

10:11 PM  
Blogger Attic said...

Responding to:

Anonymous said...

One worry about switching to Tex. Word has some nice tools and macros that most people don't use, but are quite nice. E.g., cross-referencing for tables and figures, track changes for co-authoring, add-on software like Endnote, etc...

For those of us who care about some of the bells and whistles, won't Tex leave you with just a tablet (although a pretty one, apparently)?


All of these exist in the TeX world and are much better. The difference in writing a book/dissertation isn't even close. But going back to my comment, way back this afternoon, compare math in Word and math in TeX for both what you can do and how it looks! At the end of the day people will use what they're comfortable with (front-ends, etc.), but if one is investing on the front-end of their career, the long term rewards for going TeX are far better. On the other hand, if you anticipate using very little math in your documents, you don't need the advantages of style files, all your coauthors are non-TeX types forever, and you're not concerned about producing "publication quality" typesetting, then it really doesn't really matter.

Now can anyone tell me why Guy was kicked out of a pub at the methods meeting?

10:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

E.g., cross-referencing for tables and figures, track changes for co-authoring, add-on software like Endnote, etc...

Not sure I get this because cross referencing in LaTeX is fantastically easy, for an article, a book, etc. As for citations and references, BibTeX is the standard by which all others are judged. Usually poorly. \cite{} and \citeasnoun{} are both useful commands.

Tracking document changes has more to do with the editor you use to view LaTeX fies than LaTeX itself, I think. But I am sure there are prettied up versions of emacs etc. that compare versions.

10:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For those of you wishing to take the plunge in LaTeX...

MikTeX is a common (free) installation for Windows machines, with many packages in the standard distribution. You also need a text editor that integrates with it, and WinEdt is again a common (and cheap) choice that knows when you have MikTeX (install MikTeX first) and interfaces very well with it.

10:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

TeX is beautiful. Everything about it is beautiful--how it was conceived, how it's implemented, how it looks, how it deals with justification, the combinatorial approach... That isn't to say it's for everyone. If you don't appreciate it's beauty, want a point-and-click editor, are perfectly happy with Word, or don't care for the learning curve, then you probably shouldn't make the switch. It's a religious thing. Check out the wikipedia entry, which does a pretty good job describing the ins and outs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TeX

6:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Plus a few commands in R or STATA can produce Tex code of the output in nice looking tables instead of drawing lines and excessive formatting/reformatting in Word.

12:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is there a place to download the stata commands?

12:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In the command window type
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and if your connected to the net it will give you the link to install the files

4:46 PM  
Blogger Attic said...

Thanks to anonymous for pointing out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TeX. I noticed the following, which is interesting in terms of the company we apparently keep.

"It is free and is popular in academia, especially in the mathematics, physics, computer science, political science, and engineering communities."

10:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

we got punked by wikipedia. They took us off the list of Tex users
:(

3:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just read a list of Ten Reasons People Quit Their Jobs. As someone who has had careers outside of academia, I can relate to many of the reasons given. The article states that "Employees don’t quit their companies, they quit their bosses."

I have observed that many graduate programs have an attrition rate of about 50%. Personal observation suggests that a significant part of this is self selection: students find out more about life in academia and realize they might fit better elsewhere. However, I have significant doubts that this is the whole story.

Given how little management experience most faculty have, I wonder how many otherwise capable future researchers are turned away by questionable "management" in our graduate programs.

Can we do better? Or is this "not in the job description"?

7:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you think being a grad student is bad, try publishing to keep your job. It's easy to get A's, do your RA or TA work, and pass comps. Try getting past reviewers and editors. I say make it harder on grad students.

9:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

1:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

9:34 makes a good point.

3:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Second 9:34.

7:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As a longtime latex user, I completely second or third or fourth the suggestion to find a friend who uses latex, borrow one of their docs, and use it as a template. It takes a day of questions. Many data labs have faqs on how to use latex in the specific lab environment.

The Latex community is like the R community - it provides many free and open source goodies. So if you do not like what M$ does with presentations, use beamer in latex (and it is completely trivial to take a paper and make it into incredibly readable overheads very quickly).

How one produces latex is completely secondary. I like emacs/auctex, but what I do is no different from what my friends do in SW (except they spend less time looking for manuals and I get to spend more time feeling really ancient).

6:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

LaTex question:

How do I set my bib file up to read last names like De Boef. It currently reads the De as a middle name and does not include it in the within text citation.

6:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Who is going to be the next political analysis editor?

10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Chris Zorn

6:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

6:39: Try using e.g. {De Boef}, Suzanna or {Bueno de Mesquita}, Bruce/Ethan.

7:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Any thoughts on this Jeff Gill blog post in which he sees an improving labor market for methodologists? (Presumably not just because he made the leap from Florida to UCD! ;-)

7:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

LaTex documents are visually superior to Word documents. And there are many other features that are nice. But most of my work is co-authored. Track changes is a "killer feature" that more than makes up for any other deficiencies that Word has.

6:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There's always either wdiff or (if you're really hardcore) using a revision control system like CVS or Subversion.

12:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

hi, we are a small school, we have an applicant who showed up in political analysis, as a coauthor. as methods experts how do you think we should weight this?

11:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That is a tough question to answer without knowing any specifics (about the candidate, the article in question, others in your pool, or your needs). If you are a small school with only a small grad program (or none at all), I would weight the PA article about the same as a co-authored piece in a good field journal.

If you have a grad program that teaches 3rd and 4th semester methods classes, then maybe the candidate gets a little extra weight having sent at least a small signal of being competent to better-than-average at methods.

The main point--publications in any peer reviewed forum are good.

11:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone know who got the invites at UNC (Methods search)? Or have they not yet moved?

7:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Betsy Sinclair is interviewing there. Not sure who else.

2:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dave Armstrong and Karen Jusko at UNC as well.

5:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

any word on the UGA methods offer?

5:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Park from Wash U interviewed at UNC [or will]

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Thanks

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